Building a Sustainable DE&I Talent Strategy

This panel looked at how to build diversity, equity and inclusion work that lasts: what the terms mean, what has and has not worked, and how to measure progress. James Marsh of HRreview hosted, with Claire Harvey of Vodafone, Caroline Courtin of BNP Paribas and Shazeaa Ingar of Aon.

Claire Harvey, Vodafone; Caroline Courtin, BNP Paribas; Shazeaa Ingar, Aon. Hosted by James Marsh, HRreview.

Key takeaways

Define each term by what it asks people to do

Claire Harvey's version: diversity is who is in the room, equity is who is trying to get in but cannot, inclusion is whose voices are heard, and justice is who is still not taken seriously because they are not in the majority. Shazeaa Ingar added that a person is not diverse and there is no such thing as a diverse candidate. Diversity describes a group.

Training alone will not change behaviour, so fix the systems around it

Harvey works on three things together: inclusive behaviours, systems and structures, and reward. Even the most inclusive recruiters cannot change the outcome if the recruitment system is full of bias. Inclusive behaviour also has to be an expectation with consequences, not a voluntary extra. Harvey compared stand-alone unconscious bias training to reading a healthy eating book: knowing is not doing.

Build inclusion into mainstream programmes instead of running separate ones

Harvey found that separate development programmes for under-represented groups can create 'othering', with colleagues seeing 'the talented people' and 'the diversity people'. Vodafone now makes its existing programmes inclusive and co-designs changes with its global networks, after finding that initiatives launched from the centre rarely landed. Ingar's closing advice made the same point: design with the people you are designing for, not from the top down.

Use targets to measure outcomes, not to drive activity

Courtin is a strong supporter of targets, which BNP Paribas has set on gender since 2015, because they make the ambition public and show whether things are moving. Courtin gave the bank's figures at the time of the session (June 2021): about 30% women in top management against a 2025 aim of 40%, and 40% women in the talent pool against an aim of 50%. Harvey warned that targets measure diversity, not inclusion, so Vodafone also asks demographic questions in its engagement survey and tracks an inclusion index on sense of belonging.

Get senior leaders acting as visible allies

Courtin said the biggest shift at BNP Paribas has been allyship. The CEO made public HeForShe commitments on gender balance by business line, for example in IT, trading and HR. The top 100 managers also signed a pledge not to speak at or organise any conference or debate without a gender-mixed panel.

Set global standards, then allow local differences in how you meet them

Vodafone has launched a domestic violence policy and a menopause policy that are global but not identical in every country, aiming for the same outcome everywhere. BNP Paribas tried a global employee resource group on ethnicity, which did not work first time because approaches to ethnicity differ so much by country. Courtin treats this as a test, not a failure, and the group is now on a second attempt.

22 Oct 2026 · Claire Harvey, Vodafone

Diversity programmes can backfire

Separate development schemes for under-represented groups can create 'othering'. Build inclusion into the mainstream programmes instead.

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